What are the rules and laws when it comes to using 'experimental' for
hire such as towing ultralights, instructions, photography...etc.?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message ups.com...
> What are the rules and laws when it comes to using 'experimental' for
> hire such as towing ultralights, instructions, photography...etc.?
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>


NO !!!..............................

My operating limitations say "No person may operate this aircraft for
carrying persons or property for compensation or hire." I suppose if
you get paid to tow another aircraft or tow banners you are "carrying"
property for hire. But if you tow it for free that should be OK. Also
if you take photographs on your own and then later sell those photos
you are not carrying anything for hire.

It also does not seem to exclude using your homebuilt as personal
transportation while on business trip and claim expense deduction on
your income tax since you are not carrying anybody's property or
persons for hire.

The oerating limitations say it clear enough, "No person may operate
this aircraft for carrying persons or property for compensation or
hire." It means specifically that the aircraft may not be the source
of revenue. Using the plane to carry a paying passenger is using the
plane as the source of revenue. Using it to carry cargo is also use
for revenue.

On the other side, using your own experimental plane to take aerial
photographs for your own business is not using the plane for the source
of revenue, the source of revenue is the photographs and you are
entitled to using your own plane for that purpose. You could not
however, use the same plane for providing the same service to another
person or company. See the difference?

I asked my local FSDO if it was OK to fly my experimental on business
travel, and claim travel money from my employer at the standard rate of
$1.05/mile.

They said "no problem"

I figured it cost me about half that for gas and my maintenance sinking
fund - so I counted that as a profit making venture.



"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> What are the rules and laws when it comes to using 'experimental' for
> hire such as towing ultralights, instructions, photography...etc.?
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>

BobR wrote:
> The operating limitations say it clear enough, "No person may operate
> this aircraft for carrying persons or property for compensation or
> hire." It means specifically that the aircraft may not be the source
> of revenue.

The plain wording does not specifically mean that. The FAA may
interpret it as such but that interpretation does not follow
from the plain wording. The plain wording does not prohibit
other activities for hire.

Observing that the operating limits COULD have been written
as "No person may operate this aircraft in any manner such
that the aircraft is the source of revenue." then logically
one SHOULD presume that operating the aircraft such that the
aircraft is a source of revenue is allowed so long as that is
done without carrying passengers or cargo.

> Using the plane to carry a paying passenger is using the
> plane as the source of revenue.

Yes.

> Using it to carry cargo is also use
> for revenue.

No, only if the owner/pilot is PAID to carry the cargo, but
I presume that is what you mean.

>
> On the other side, using your own experimental plane to take aerial
> photographs for your own business is not using the plane for the source
> of revenue, the source of revenue is the photographs and you are
> entitled to using your own plane for that purpose.

Suppose he was hired to simply flyover a party for entertainment.
Legal or not? (boring, perhaps, but that is not the point.)

> You could not
> however, use the same plane for providing the same service to another
> person or company. See the difference?

By which I presume you mean he could not allow another person or
company to lease or rent the plane for those purposes. However,
again, that does not follow from the plain wording. Are there
other restrictions on leasing or renting experimentals regardless
of purpose?

--

FF

Thank you everyonw for responding. I'm still wondering about the
operations that tows hang gliders with what looks like
ultralights/homebuilts. Also is the AirCam certified?

Thanks,
Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

I would think that a legal ultralight would not have enough power to
tow another vehicle.

It is my understanding that the sharing of expenses is ok. You get to
decide the ratio. Could be 50/50 or 90/10.
Gary

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> What are the rules and laws when it comes to using 'experimental' for
> hire such as towing ultralights, instructions, photography...etc.?
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>

keepitrunning wrote:
> It is my understanding that the sharing of expenses is ok. You get to
> decide the ratio. Could be 50/50 or 90/10.
> Gary
>
> "Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > What are the rules and laws when it comes to using 'experimental' for
> > hire such as towing ultralights, instructions, photography...etc.?
> >
> > ...

I've been told by a pilot that sharing expenses is NOT OK
unless the pilot has a commercial license. His aircraft
is not an experimental, so I dunno if there is also an
aircraft dependance in addition to a pilot dependence for
that rule or interpretation.

Sharing expenses among co-owners is OK though.

--

FF

> wrote

> I've been told by a pilot that sharing expenses is NOT OK
> unless the pilot has a commercial license. His aircraft
> is not an experimental, so I dunno if there is also an
> aircraft dependance in addition to a pilot dependence for
> that rule or interpretation.
>
> Sharing expenses among co-owners is OK though.

Oh Lordy, Lordy, here we go again.

This has been hashed out so many times, it is as well beat as the proverbial
horse, or the downwind turn.

How about doing some googleing for the answers. It is all there for you to
read, again, and again, and again, .......

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:47:41 -0400, Bryan Martin
> wrote:


>> Thank you everyonw for responding. I'm still wondering about the
>> operations that tows hang gliders with what looks like
>> ultralights/homebuilts. Also is the AirCam certified?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>>
>
As I understand it, experimental aircraft cannot be used to tow
gliders, unless something has changed. I have a glider hook, but only
for hand propping.

Ed Sullivan

Morgans wrote:
> > wrote
>
> > I've been told by a pilot that sharing expenses is NOT OK
> > unless the pilot has a commercial license. His aircraft
> > is not an experimental, so I dunno if there is also an
> > aircraft dependance in addition to a pilot dependence for
> > that rule or interpretation.
> >
> > Sharing expenses among co-owners is OK though.
>
> Oh Lordy, Lordy, here we go again.
>
> This has been hashed out so many times, it is as well beat as the proverbial
> horse, or the downwind turn.
>
> How about doing some googleing for the answers. It is all there for you to
> read, again, and again, and again, .......

OK.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/msg/286d0fb42d8a11ca?dmode=source

Thanks. I'll let my freind know.

--

FF

> wrote

>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/msg/286d0fb42d8a11ca?dmode=source
>
> Thanks. I'll let my freind know.

No, thank You! :-)
--
Jim in NC